communication problem with close friend

OK how to be brief and to the point here... first off, this is a complicated question, at least to me. It's a very distressing problem that I can't get my head around and I'm not even sure how best to articulate the issue in a post like this. Here is my best effort.

I've been renting a room from an elderly woman, mid 70's, for nearly 6 years. I am presently 62 years old, 63 next month. This relationship is not a romantic situation, I guess you could say it's entirely platonic but during the time we've known each other it seems to me we've become very close friends and it has been my impression that is true for her also. We talk alot about a range of things from politics to religion and spiritual matters, all kinds of deep and meaningful conversations as well as light hearted chit chat and joking around, an area which I feel we've gotten much better at understanding each others jokes, etc.. which certainly wasn't always the case.

It has seemed to me we've always gotten along well, except for occasional conflicts that arise from time to time and can be very intense and volatile. It is some kind of a communication problem that appears now and again but represents less than 10% of our total interactions, to me at any rate. When one of these episodes is in full flight, though, it can seem alot bigger and the emotional intensity and the conflict and sense of impasse can seem insurmountable. The pattern is genarally pretty consistent and it generally is very explosive and can go from a conflict free situation, all cool, to total breakdown in communication and impasse very quickly. (I'll refer to her as Bev for this post),

As a rule, what triggers one of these episodes is something Bev will say or do, usually a comment of some kind, that I find mean, harsh, nasty, hurtful, etc.. As a rule, her comment will seem not only incorrect, but it will often seem unjust, uncalled for. Like it just came out of nowhere to cut me deep. That's how it will seem to me and I will generally respond by saying something to that effect. I may react with an annoyed tone or something to that effect, in an effort to communicate my feeling about whatever was said. At this point, the exchange is still not in explode mode, usually. And depending on her response to my reaction is what will determine whether it escalates or not. On some occasions, she'll come right back with something even more cutting and hurtful and that can push me toward seeing red and becoming angry.

At that point we'll both tend to be rapidly triggering into knee jerk emotional reactivity and once that state grips us both it will escalate quickly to an impasse situation where communication breaks down entirely and neither person seems to be capable of understanding the other. For me I think its usually a case of an angry facade acting as a protective shell to underlying hurt. I may describe the things she has said as being like a knife stabbing me in the heart.

For her, she seems to pretty consistenly adopt a posture of dismissal of my perception of things. She seems to believe that in those instances, I am applying meaning to her words or actions that are entirely delusional. In other words, she will completely invalidate my perception of reality, particularly my interpretation of things she said.

In the past couple days I got an email from her that was simply a link to a short video clip, it's title in the subject field which read, "How Emotionally Immature People Distort Reality". I contemplated the clip for a day or two before asking her about it and of course the message from her in sending it was how accurately it described me. As far as she is concerned, that is how she views what's going on during one of these conflict episodes. Basically, it is me reacting to my own distorted imaginings of what's happening that have no basis in objective reality. She has also told me she believes that I create drama deliberately, causing drama to erupt either because I love it or I'm addicted to it. But the bottom line is a situation is just fine and I will find a way to introduce conflict for no other reason other than my sick need to do so. The suggestion that there may be anything she did or said to contribute to it is agressively invalidated with an entirely dismissive manner, as if it's utterly ludicrous to even consider such nonsense. I am at it again, living in an imaginary reality due to my emotional immaturity.

The real oddity is that my perspective is very similar, only exactly the opposite. From where I'm sitting, it is her who is totally blind to herself. She will say something that from my point of view is objectively mean and hurtful. My view is that any reasonable person would see it that way and her denial is just that, denial. Either unable or unwilling to see or acknowledge it. Honestly, at those times it honestly does seem to me that Bev is completely blind to certain things about her own behavior. But it also seems that the accusations she is directing at me suggest basically the exact same thing. I'm the one who is blind to my own patterns of behavior.

So there is the essence of this impasse, we both appear to believe the exact same thing about the other person being blind to their own faults, and those faults being entirely to blame for these episodes of conflict.

One final thing I will say is that invariably, I am the one who wants to talk things out and get to the bottom of it where Bev shuts down and will refuse to communicate any further past a certain point. And I'm talking now about any attempt to come together after an incident and try to talk about it. I am always keen to do so but she will become very upset very quickly and simply shut down all communication. As far as she is concerned we cannot discuss these things because talking to me is like talking to a broken record and there is nothing I can say that she hasn't already heard a hundred times before and her conclusion is that I am not capable of ever understanding anything because I am trapped in a delusional view of things that I can't stop replaying over and over.

To me this just seems like a mechanism she uses to avoid facing the actual truth of the matter. If I try to communicate that to her she accuses me of calling her a liar.

Despite all this, Bev has become family to me at this point and I love and care about her and the animals that also live there are kind of like kids. The vast majority of the time Bev is lovely and we get along well. It's just these episodes and as it happens there is one going on now. Which is why I'm here. The truth is I honestly and sincerely want to understand things. Bev is inclined to make sweeping suggestions in the midst of conflict that she can't live like this anymore, her view is that I'm becoming mean and hurtful and unkind to her and that she doesn't deserve it, etc.. And she seems unable to see any of the good things in our friendship at that time. It always blows over though back to pleasantness. And that did seem to be becoming more the case more of the time while conflict seemed to be less frequent.

Anyway, there's more detail that could be included but I'm tired and I expect this is enough to give ya'll a pretty decent glimpse into things. Any feedback welcome. Thank you. Brain

Welcome to MSF @Brain Toomer - I am sorry you have some differences of opinions with your landlady who is more like family.

This reminds me of my mom who passed away 2 years ago. She could be the most supportive person in my life but there could be times where I am eating a bowl of food and she would say "what is that stuff you are eating ? It looks like baby poop. "

I used to get into it with her but then I got to a point where I would just smile and keep eating though it was not as pleasurable after that comment. There was no use trying to change her opinion; "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up."

When that type of comment that triggers you happens, it seems pointless to try to discuss it with her so how about trying other ways of dealing with your anger?

CANDC

[If you want me to see your reply to this post please tag me by including @CANDC in your message - not in requoting my message and not the first word of your message]

Just say, "Thank you for sharing that with me" and leave the room!

You are both old enough that neither of you will have your mind changed by the other's arguments.

Remember, when you point a finger, there are 3 more pointing back at you. Dontsay that! But maybe find something more neutral you can argue about? Religion? Politics? Pronouns? Which way to roll the toilet paper? You both seem to like psychology - maybe share articles that are more informative but less pointed.

It sounds like this lady you rent from is incapable of self-reflection. Instead she always sees herself as blameless and you as the one who creates a problem. I can relate somewhat, in that I had a 20 year friendship with a gal who likes to needle people. Usually I would try to not take the bait and would avoid reacting. It seemed that getting a rise out of me was what she was after, like this was her idea of sport.

Once in a while, though, her needling would get to me, and I'ld get upset, and we'ld have a falling out. A few years ago, during a time when I was dealing with serious medical issues, she launched into one of her needling sessions. I just had had it. I got mad and ended the friendship. Sometimes, I wish I had handled it differently. I do miss her friendship. In truth, she was always more of a taker than a giver. But I had accepted her, as she was. I don't feel guilty about the rift because she really was asking for it. She constantly played games of verbal one-ups-manship. It got old.

Still, I ask myself what I could have done differently? I think it would have been better to have figured out how to set and enforce some boundaries. As an introvert, I don't have great social skills. Rather than spar with someone, I tend to withdraw. I think it would have been better to do neither, but, rather, to calmly call her out on her verbal game-playing. I could have said, "I don't look for things to criticize in you, so why do you enjoy putting me down?" That might have actually got her to thinking.

When someone invites you to a "head game," you have the option of declining to go there with them. Hopefully, I'll employ that strategy more skillfully in other relationships. The old saying is, "You teach people how to treat you." People who are always looking to challenge us probably are hungry for attention. It might be best to disengage the moment that crap starts. Then you deprive them of the gratification of feeling they can get to you. Maybe you can figure out a strategy along those lines.

Your situation is difficult because you depend on this lady for shelter. If you're reasonably comfortable with this housing arrangement, you probably don't want to lose it. I too have rented spare rooms in other people's apartments. I know the pitfalls that can occur. It's a business arrangement. Yet, you want to be friendly. Striking the right balance can be tough.

Keep in mind that you do have some leverage. This lady is probably glad of the rent she collects from you. She probably also places value on the companionship that you being there provides. I've lived alone for the past 5 years. It can be depressing at times. Your challenge is to place limits on how you'll allow her to interact with you. That can be tough to accomplish. It's kind of like training a dog. It takes patience, firmness, consistency. I'm not saying your landlady is a dog, but there are parallels. You want to encourage acceptable behavior and not reinforce unwelcome behaviors.

Do you spend time with her in the kitchen and living room? Maybe spend more time in your room. Let her miss you for a while. It sounds like there is enough good in this arrangement that it's worth salvaging. Feel free to come here to vent when it seems like it's going off the rails.

rose

So, OK, here it is, and I've seen this many times, in my own ex husband and other toxic types I have come across.

Bev is very likely a narcissist, or is just plain toxic. Either way it falls, what she is doing is deflecting all responsibility for her hurtful words onto you, and is taking the ownership off herself and is blaming you for your reaction to her hurtful words.

A narcissist never takes responsibility for their harmful actions towards others, they always blame the other person, and they always deflect responsibility. They also have no introspection ability, conflicts with a narcissist always escalate quickly into explosions, and they also shut down all communication as a manipulation tactic to get the other person to take ownership and be the one to apologize and make amends. It's an impossible relationship dynamic that cannot be sustained. Inevitably, people walk away from the narcissist.

You are not responsible for mending the fences. She says hurtful things, and you naturally react with hurt and try to explain how that behavior hurts you. She will never be compassionate about how her actions or words effect you, because the narcissist has ZERO empathy for how their harmful behavior hurts other people. What's even more sick and disturbing about this personality type is that they actually get off on hurting other people because it makes them feel more important and powerful.

So, you have a choice. Either you always become the one to apologize and make amends, even if the responsibility does not fall onto you to apologize, and you end up being the victim of her harmful and toxic behaviors, or you distance yourself to protect yourself from any further harm. This woman will NOT change, and she will never apologize to you and she will never take ownership. So either you walk away or you continue to be hurt at times by her dagger-like words.

The narcissist always also accuses the victim of being delusional, or crazy, or to have mental health disorder for their reaction to the harm they inflict.

If it were me, I'd walk away and hold her at a great distance. But that's me. I protect my emotional safety and mental health fully by walking away from any toxic person I come across. So, unfortunately, this is how she is and now you have a choice to make.

I am very sorry you are dealing with such a person. 5% of the world's population are narcissists.

Good post! That's exactly how I was seeing this. Next time she says something cutting or mean say either "what did you expect by saying that?" or "I'm sorry...I must have misheard you. "
I really hope things calm down with her. Keep in mind that she is gas lighting you and don't reply to those type of comments.
Stay true to YOU!

I very much appreciate all the insights and advice that have been offered, there is a great deal to contemplate and I am very grateful. Generally, the over-arching interpretations of my opening post that are woven throughout the replies I've received from you fine folks have provided me with some much needed validation that my point of view may indeed have merit and some of my own suspicions and conclusions about the true underlying nature of things have been well articulated back to me by a number of your insightful comments. I'm reluctant to take all that, though, and pin it to my chest like a medal of valor or something as I begin doing victory laps -- as tempting as that may be. The truth is, even if after looking deeply into this via a forum like yours combined with as much additional research and study as I can do, even if enough of all that does lead me to a point at which I feel confident that I'm on solid ground with my judgement, none of that would feel like I "won" or anything of the kind. Sure, it would be nice to know I'm not crazy, but that doesn't fix anything. The problem will not have changed or gone away just because I understand it better.

I actually sincerely care about this person and all I will have concluded is that she must be truly lost in a treacherous mindscape, the nature of which I struggle to fathom. The question then is not, do I stay for more abuse or do I protect my sanity and escape? The question then is, how do I rescue her from that hellish place she's lost in? Also, I wonder if I can reach such a realization at a deep enough level of conviction that it is well and solidly founded, how would that affect me and my difficulties in navigating that minefield? Surely I can acknowledge my own reactivity as an unproductive contributor to escalating conflict. Yes, I can get mad and defensive and I know without any doubt how this NEVER helps and only makes things worse, every time. What if I could learn to correct these reactive tendencies in myself? That would be something, and because at times the knee jerk reactions are so immediate... there seems to be no space whatsoever between the stimulous and the response, how do I ever get into that gap with any degree of conscious awareness before the reaction is triggered?

I must go, and will be contemplating all this as I am able. Thank you all again, I expect I'll be back in due course. Cheers

You are a very kind and compassionate person and I have a lot of respect for you.

You asked "What if I could learn to correct these reactive tendencies in myself? That would be something, and because at times the knee jerk reactions are so immediate... there seems to be no space whatsoever between the stimulous and the response, how do I ever get into that gap with any degree of conscious awareness before the reaction is triggered?"

I do not know what would work for you but for me I follow my breath and when I take a deep breath and let it out it gives me a little space. I can decide to change the topic, excuse myself and go to the restroom, say I hear you or something else.

My track record for rescuing people that I have tried is dismal: 50 people I tried to save - none saved. I find that the only way people will change is if they want to change. That is my experience

CANDC

[If you want me to see your reply to this post please tag me by including @CANDC in your message - not in requoting my message and not the first word of your message]

"What if I could learn to correct these reactive tendencies in myself? That would be something, and because at times the knee jerk reactions are so immediate... there seems to be no space whatsoever between the stimulous and the response, how do I ever get into that gap with any degree of conscious awareness before the reaction is triggered?"

This is the 10 trillion dollar question ! Do you know how fast all this happens ? I think that before you even say what you say your in a fight or flight mode. Which means you will act instantaneously to a provocation. There is no time for your prefrontal cortex to override what's coming out of your limbic system. I think some people are made a certain way. Some people ,( with much practice ) , can intercept those signals and be able to take a deep breath or count to ten or whatever.
Anyhow I just wanted to say you are validated. And don't wait for her to tell you that because a true narcissist never apologizes .
I would try and start looking for different living arrangements. She.will always have the upper hand in the situation your in.

Some of the things I'm hearing are so unbelievably difficult for me to process, particularly all the suggestions about what I can and cannot expect from Bev. For example, she'll never apologize, never acknowledge or validate my thoughts or feelings regarding these conflicts... and the following well articulated ideas from Have Hope:

All these things make Bev sound like such a terrible person. At the same time, see her going out of her way to care for homeless animals and even though she very often commisserates to me how hard the rising costs of basically everything are hitting h. I don't know her actual circumstances financially to any s;pecific degree, I only know that she is fretting almost constantly about the rising cost of living and her need to get out of that house. At the same time, if an animal is sick and needs veterinary care, she will get the animal to a doctor and she will find a way to pay for it. And my perception of her when I see her doing something like that is that she is very kind and caring and compassionate to do what she does for helpless animals in the neighborhood.

And I simply don't know how to hold these conflicting and contradictory thoughts in my head.... on the one hand she is clearly a loving and caring person, willing to spend what she really can't afford to help a suffering animal. At the same time she is capable of being particularly mean, nasty, hurtful,

Just to comment here again and to add for the OP: if you try to "fix" and "help" this woman friend, that becomes codependecy, which is not healthy for you. That's where you try to help someone at your own expense. Trying not to react is very very difficult when the reaction is automatic and flight or fight. You can implement what is called the "grey rock" method with a narcissist, but that is encouraged when you MUST have interaction with a narcissist.

Well heck! I was assembling a reply some hours ago, with quotes interspersed with my thoughts and I had put alot of work into it but I fell asleep before completing and posting it.... just woke up and wanted to get back to it and it is nowhere to be found! I guess I was assembling it in one of these Quick Reply windows, copying and pasting bits and pieces from elsewhere, etc.. But for whatever reason it's gone. I've been looking everywhere and it looks like I'll have to start over. ***big sigh***

OK I had started off saying how difficult parts of this process are to me. Really, unbelievably difficult for me to grasp certain things. For example -- I'm hearing alot of feedback about the kind of person Bev likely is: someone who will never take responsibility, never acknowledge or validate my perspective when conflict arises... And the following from Have Hope:

Reading this information it is scary how accurately it describes Bev. On one level, I don't want to believe it. For these things to be true, it seems like she must be a truly terrible person. And these descriptions do ring true, very true. But I have a very difficult time accepting the idea that she is a terrible person. She exhibits alot of love and compassion for sick, homeless animals, and will go so far as to take a sick homeless animal to the vet and pay for its treatment and care, often very expensive and something she really can't afford. She commiserates alot about how skyrocketing cost of living is impacting her financially. And I note many things she does without for financial reasons and yet she will over extend to help a sick animal. How can that be a terrible person? She also has been paying a monthly amount to support a child in Africa who she only knows by letters the child has written and photos she's received that she has on the fridge. Don't you have to be a compassionate, caring person to do something like that and keep it up over a period of years? How can these loving, caring traits be real alongside the horrible traits being described earlier? I am really having a hard time fitting all this in my head.

Uh-oh... I see what happened... I was falling asleep and posted an incomplete post at 12:50am then I woke up again and couldn't find what I'd written and thought it had vanished... so I re-wrote it, when in fact it was stuck in moderation limbo land... and that is how I came to post two similar versions of it during the night. The question is, are they the same enough that I should delete one of them or are they different enough to let them both remain.... I'll go check on that... in the meantime please accept my lame explanation..

hmmm this moderation thing is really wreaking havoc on continuity here.... surely this moderation delay can be discontinued once a person has clearly demonstrated they are legit, not a bot or spammer?

Once you have 5 posts, you are in.

Narcissists are pros at creating a false persona that makes them APPEAR to be good people on the surface. It's called putting on their "masks". When they take off their masks, or their false persona, they reveal their true selves.

it's not two different and opposing sides to a person either. When the mask comes off, that's the real person. So the woman who throws hurtful zingers your way, then blames you for your reaction to the hurt they've caused, and who says you're delusional, is the REAL PERSON underneath the false "mask".

My ex husband, who is a diagnosable narcissist, would pretend to be a friend to animals. He expressed a lot of false empathy towards animals, and that was all a part of his false image that he portrayed to make people think he has empathy. He showed ZERO empathy towards me in our marriage, which is what told me that his image is false and that he is wearing a mask pretending to be empathetic.

Yes, it's really hard to believe, and it's a tough pill to swallow, especially if you want to see and believe the best in people. But in life, not all people are who they present themselves to be. When a person shows you who they really are the first time, believe them.

If you educate yourself on narcissism, you will be far more equipped to both understand and avoid these horrible people.

So, in essence your so-called friend is certainly not a good person. She is extremely disordered. Narcissism is a severe mental health personality disorder, and the sooner you see this and accept this, the better off you will be.

You should be able to post now without moderation, after 5 posts, I do believe.

I don think anyone was saying Bev is a horrible person. She has personality quirks like all of us do. Some are more hurtful than others. Your "reactive tendencies" are human nature. What CANDC.said about taking a big breath is a good one. Try not to respond immediately. If you have to ,turn and walk away. Give yourself time to process what was said and how you want to respond.... Not reactive.

Hi again, I was waiting the past couple days to see email telling me of any new posts in this thread and I saw no email so assumed there hadn't been any new activity. I have my "Thread Subscription Mode" set to Instant email notification but it doesn't seem to be behaving that way? I just stopped by and found a couple new posts but no email notifications.... not in junk either... anyway, just a peripheral issue I guess, but any suggestions welcome...

On the other hand, the central issue of this thread continues to perplex me. During the 6 years I've been living in this woman's home I've experienced countless occasions where I've stood back and tried to see the situation clearly and I have very often found myself entertaining some pretty dark suspicions about what's really going on with this person. Everything from varying degrees of neurosis all the way to a full blown sociopathic or even psychopathic condition, although, I have to acknowledge I don't really even know what those terms mean exactly. So my suspicions have only been from a very laypersons perspective. At the same time, though, I've tried to evaluate my own mental and emotional wellbeing, and I really can't say with absolute certainty that I, myself, am entirely squared away in that department. In fact, I imagine that there are conditions in that realm that the individual inflicted by them might be entirely unable to see in themselves, that they're blind to. I've concluded with my friend, that if she is in fact inflicted with anything along the lines of the conditions that have been suggested in this thread, she does seem to honestly be blind to it in herself. In complete and utter denial of there being any truth whatsoever to anything of the kind when I've attempted to articulate seeing them in her. Any effort to get her to acknowledge or recognize any of these things in herself have been futile and I really seem to have settled on the belief that she is blind to such things and simply unable to see them in herself.

The thing is, though, on the occasions we have managed to try talking about these things, it does seem very often if not always as if her perspective is a mirror image of my own only exactly opposite, where I'm the one who is unwilling or unable to see what's true in me. I'm the one who is blind to myself, in denial.

If that's the case, how can I know with any certainty that it's not me who is blind to myself? Here's a video clip she sent me during the past couple weeks: NOTE: Just discovering I can't share a link until I have 10 posts. Can anyone please help me understand how this rule benefits anyone? Shouldn't the objective be a clear and concise communication between all the participants in a conversation such as this. Preventing links to what might be very insightful and/or relevanbt content seems counterproductive. Anyway, If you have a moment, it's pretty short. The title is "How Emotionally Immature People Distort Reality" (if interested try searching youtube) And when I asked her about it, it was clear that she believes this to be true of me. How can I know if this is correct or not? Of course when I first saw the clip in my inbox, my first thought was totally wishful thinking that maybe she sent it as a realization of seeing this in herself. But that notion vanished from my head quickly and the fact she saw this in me was quickly confirmed when we spoke.

I see the feedback in this thread is pretty consistently leaning into the views I myself am leaning hard toward believing. And of course my natural tendency is toward grabbing and embracing such feedback. After all, it generally seems to back me up, validate my point of view and identifies my friend as the source of the conflict. But what if I'm the professional so adept at manipulating the perspective of others to suit my objectives?? If there is any truth to that then will I not have come into this forum knowing how to tell my story so I would get the validation I need and want? How do you all know with certainty that I haven't played you all with my story In just such a clever and devious manner as to garner sympathy for myself while painting my friend as the villain?

If I am afflicted by blind spots that I'm unaware of and simply cannot see, how can I know what is true?

PS. this 10 posts before I can share a link rule is very lame, I'm trying to share a very relevant link and cannot,. Well, the short clip is called, "How Emotionally Immature People Distort Reality". If you copy and past that into the youtube search field it should come up

PPS. please forgive any typos and the like in the above, I need to just send without proof reading, hope it makes some kinda sense....

If a tree falls in a forest and my friend isn’t around to hear it, am I still wrong?

Fraid so.

Now that's funny!!

but seriously though, I think I must have a blind spot because there's something I'm not seeing. The question is: WHAT exactly am I not seeing? And why? And how can I un-blind myself to the truth?

Thanks, its one of my favorite jokes. I recently dreamt about my neighbor who had it on a tshirt.

Another friend, who is/was in AA, used to talk about disengaging - like our need to disengage from our families when they are toxic. Im not so good at it - my mother is ten years gone and im just finally starting to feel free. Going no contact helped, but her passing helped more. You are kind of stuck there. You know the biblical saying, a man cannot serve two masters. As long as you are embedded, can you disengage?

Well, for one thing, a professional manipulator's whole career would depend on never, ever letting themselves sound anywhere near as confused as you've been sounding about this particular subject.

Permit me, please, to offer these two alternative possibilities for your consideration:

1. The glass is half empty at best, and you're "afflicted by blind spots" that everyone but you is aware of...

-- or --

2. The glass is about half full, and you have somewhere around your normal share of blind spots along with the rest of us.

Personally, when I've been absolutely certain what was true and what wasn't, I've generally found that that knowledge did me little, if any, good. Meanwhile, when I've been certain that I had absolutely no idea what was true and what wasn't, I've consistently found that what worked best for me was to choose the fantasy that suited me best and stick with that until I learned otherwise.

I think it was William Blake who said, "If the fool would persist in his folly, he would become wise." I've tended to appreciate that quote a lot, myself, but those in my life who've dedicated themselves to teaching me the error of my ways, have seldom seemed to.